Автомобили, топлинни машини, алтернативни горива > Разлагане на водата
Електролизер на Stanley Mayer
mzk:
Кратко обяснение на процеса.
Конвенционалната електролиза използва постоянен ток. Отдаването на електрони между катода и анода е постоянно, използва се много ток (ампераж) за да се добие водород и кислород.
Стенли Майер смята, че има друг начин за разделянето на водорода и кислорода- не чрез отдаване на електрони. Прието е, че водната молекула е податлива на електричното поле. Т.е.- пуска се някакво напрежение, което създава условията за разрушаване на връзката. За да има обаче ефект от него- то е пулсиращо.
Т.е. чрез пулса веднъж се създава електричното поле, втори път се намаля потока на електрони (т.е. редуцираме ампеража).
mzk:
--- Цитат ---But wanted to comment on something else: I am referring to the calculations in
this posting (page 8 of this thread): ravzz wrote: ...interesting finding:
The findings are based on this youtube video from Dave Lawton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miwbvsya3Ek , WATCH IT! ... Just doing a simple
calculation a tube in plain fresh water ...
Here my own calculations based on the concept mentioned in this posting:
Speed of sound (v) of pure water at room temperature (20° C) is ca. 1482 m/s
See: http://www.npl.co.uk/acoustics/techguides/soundpurewater/lubbers.html
Consequently the calculation gives the following "basic resonance frequency" for
a tube-in-tube cell: f=v/2L where v is the speed of sound ind water and L is the
length of the tubes in meters.
For tubes of 5" (12.7cm) length, resonance frequency (f) would be ca.
f=1482/2*0.127= 5834 Hz Please note again the coincidence with the 5714 Hz in
the video.
OK. Here some more sample calculations: For tubes of 6" (15.24cm) length:
f=1482/2*0.1524= 4862 Hz For tubes of 10" (25.4cm) length: f=1482/2*0.254= 2917
Hz For tubes of 12" (30.5cm) length: f=1482/2*0.305= 2430 Hz For tubes of 15"
(38.1cm) length: f=1482/2*0.381= 1945 Hz
Please note that water temperature is a critical factor as the speed of sound in
water changes noticeably, when the temp changes. With rising temperature of
water, the resonance frequency also rises.
And: When I first read about this concept of calculation, I was wondering what
sense it made to use the speed of sound in WATER to calculate the length of
STEEL tubes. I think I have come to realize why that makes sense: Because in
reality the calculation does not calculate the length of the steel tubes, but
actually the length/height of the water ring that is located between the inner
and outer tube (which accidentally has the same height as the two tubes).
And why is the speed of sound important, anyway? Because we want to create
standing sound waves in the water, i.e. areas of different pressure ....
Now what would happen if the tube diameter i.e. the circumference of the water
ring/column would be chosen to be "harmonically in tune" with the height of the
column?
Whoever experiments with resonance in tube-in-tube cells, please feel free to
post your tube lengths and the pulsing freq that works best for you, so that the
mentioned concept and calculations can be verified or refuted.
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mzk:
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45 :!: :idea:
mzk:
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=521&start=0
--- Цитат ---Ok guys, through my simple experiments I have confirmed that the white powdery coating formation is aided by taking the tubes out of the water to let dry when doing the water change. Doing so will allow for the oxidation to take place at the electrodes. I place my tubes in front of a fan to dry and I change my water every 20-30 mins. I'm putting 12v@ 1A slow pulsed and i'm using well water, since it has more minerals in it. Although tap water is good also. Do not use distilled water while conditioning or you'll spend a whole lot more time to achieve the coating. It is safe to use detergent on the tubes to remove the brown gunk. but don't scrub the inner ones. I just put dish washing soap and rinse it with flowing water through to flush out the gunk from in between the gap. Whatever the coating is, it does help with production, beacuse the bubbles do not stick to the electrode anymore.
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--- Цитат ---Duranza, I found this post by searching google - I could not find it via the WFC site itself.
Your conditioning of cells interests me as I believe that the conditioning, particularly the oxide layer on the anode, is what actually creates a water capacitor. I mentioned this on another site, and like you felt this was an important consideration. However, my observation again like yours, was simply dismissed or ignored by everyone.
As normal tap water between the electrodes simply gives us a non-linear resistor, I had always had my problems with Meyer's water capacitor as such. However, if the anode becomes oxidised (most oxides being very good insulators), we have a genuine dielectric and we can forget about the water being the dielectric. The water then simply becomes a very effective extension of the cathode. We have then a 'wet electrolytic capacitor'. Now I know some people try to discourage this oxide layer on the anode, but I think it may be a crucial part of the cell, particularly bin terms of pulsed voltages.
If I'm right, then a properly conditioned wfc should strongly oppose the flow of current if a steady (unpulsed) dc voltage is applied to the cell. Electrolytic capacitors do have a high leakage current, but it should still present a much higher resitance than uncondition electrodes. I'm not quite up and running yet, so can't test this, but thought you might be in a position to do so.
As I say, no one showed any interest in this on another forum, but like you I think this is important.
Would like to discuss this more if you're still looking in.
Farrah Day
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--- Цитат ---I've recently posted this on another forum:
"I know there has been little or no interest in what I said about the oxide layer on the SS actually being the dielectric, but something I read on another forum by 'Ravi', has made me even more convinced by this now. He stated that it took months for his cells to be conditioned and working at the efficiency they were currently working at.
This is what I think is happening:
Stainless steel is 'stainless' because of the chromuim in it. The chromium oxidises when it comes into contact with oxygen. This creates an invisible, extremely thin film of chromuim oxide (Cr2O3). This film of chromium oxide self-heals like galvanised steel, but unlike galvanised steel the layer is only atoms thick. Chromium oxide is an insulator, with a dielectric constant of around 13, but at literally only atoms thick, simply touching it will break through this insulation.
Now, the interesting thing about stainless steel is that it will actually corrode badly in an OXYGEN FREE environment. It is the continual presence of oxygen in the air or water that allows the oxide film to self-heal and maintain itself. Now, think about what we do when we use ss as an anode. We immerse the ss in water containing free oxygen which maintains its protective oxide layer, but then we attract lots of pure oxygen directly onto it's surface. I believe we are enhancing the oxide layer; thickening the oxide layer and so creating a more formidable dielectric layer. Hence we have a better water capacitor that will hold a charge for longer"
Water as the dielectric was always a bug-bear of mine, as I never really thought this possible, or likely... put simply tap water conducts. Then the importance of conditioning of the plates came to light more and more, and with it realisation that the conditioning was actually forming an insulating dielectric layer. Water is not the dielectric.
We have the capacitor now, with water being simply an all encompassing extension of the cathode. Next question then is how exactly are we getting the water molecule to split and release its component gases?
If the oxide layer is an insulator, forming the capacitor, then it should opposed DC. AC, on the other, hand would pass to a lesser or greater degree, with the capacitor allowing far more current flow at higher frequencies than lower frequencies.
The thing is, we are not providing an AC signal to our capacitor (which is polarised), but rather DC pulses. The capacitor will charge from the DC pulses, so there will be a standing voltage across the dielectric, and as this leaks the pulses will keep topping the capacitor up.
However, this leakage current, will prevent the voltage reaching the 'stress' level needed to physically pull the water apart, unless we can top it up faster than it can leak.
I think that the small current flowing through the wfc is simply the natural dc leakage current of a 'wet electrolytic capacitor', and will likely happen all the time because of the pd across the dielectric. No amount of so-called 'amp consuming devices' before the wfc will stop this. Only improving the dielectric layer will reduce this.
However, getting the right LC combination and pulse frequency will be critical in restricting current flow through the circuit.
Then, something I read here 'clicked'. http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Water_Fuel_Cell
If and when a DC pulse attains a certain level of potential difference across the oxide layer dielectric, then this dielectric layer (not the water) briefly, but catastrophically breaks down. The highly charged plates effectively short out across this dielectric layer. However, the current restricting LC combination won't allow this to happen fast enough. The electrical charges on the plates are unable to form an equilibrium and hence balance the plate charges from within the electrical circuit. Instead, other options are looked for - this being the water. The water is instantly ionised as the water is effectively pulled apart, the ions attempting to meet or, at least reduce the massive charge deficit on the plates.
When this happens, current through the circuit is not affected much, but a lot is happening to the water within the wfc.
That at least is how I'm rationalising the workings of a wfc ... so far.
Oh one thing about the water you use. Bear in mind that if you use de-ionised water in a wfc and don't use it regularly, the ss plates will corrode, as the protecting oxide layer needs oxygen to be maintained. As it is, the cathode plate might corrode even in use with or without de-ionised water due to lack of oxygen. This I think is what we are seeing on Duranza’s cathodes.
Farrah Day
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--- Цитат ---Firstly, the main frequency pulse. We will want this to be quite high, as high frequency through an inductor will create a high resistance to current flow - hence the inductor acts as our natural current limiter. Note: I'm dismissing all ideas of resistive wire to restrict current, as this would simply waste power, whereas an inductor will store energy and release it back into the cct with only a very small loss of power.
The modulation of the high frequency pulses. Now I've heard mention that this is used to control the gas output in order to accelerate/decelerate a vehicle. However, I don't think we have that to worry about yet. So I believe that more likely the modulation of the high frequency by a lower frequency is what provides the 'off' time that allows the dielectric to reform.
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mzk:
http://www.waterfuelcell.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=454
--- Цитат ---The schematic i made in the past was a working wreck, it was only working because it was screwed. now, enough about that deformed circuit, lets get on with the good stuff and put that in the past!
A few things you should know before you continue your water fuel cell adventure.
1. A coil of any kind in parallel or series with a ("none BI polar") capacitor seperated by a diode in any direction CAN NOT AND WILL NOT RESONATE!
2. A ("None BI Polar") Capacitor Can Not resonate with a inductor in any kind of Pulsed DC OR AC. ("Only bipolar ones can do this")!
3. The Frequency Is COMPLETE BULLSHIT let me say that again, it is COMPLET BULLSHIT there is no Frequency, Stanley did this to confuse you. With Good meaning! you would have did the same.
4. The Patent "stanley meyers", which shows the 5 spikes seperated by a delay where the pulses start at a lower voltage, and workes its way up to the 5 Spike then comes to a delay was simply to confuse you!!! it's not true.
Faqs, There is a Pulse needed at a desired Frequency, but it's nothing like you think, its not what you think. i hardly refer to it as a frequency, its much slower ("has nothing to do with the resonate or water molecule".
The unite works of of COLD ELECTRICITY google that with inventors.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOHhhhhh
I can clearly see why stanley used a alternator now. His transformer that stated 200 wraps of 22 gauge wire with 600 turns of 36 awg wire was complete bull, it was used to throw you for a loop just like the frequency, stanley "is" a smart man, i admire him for that, and i respect him!
CHOKES
They're very very important, the wrong chokes will get really hot really fast, i just figured all this out, so you guys need to help me on them.
More to come if i don't get bashed, But remember, Forget the dave lawton circuit, its not needed, and is a complete wast of time if you're trying to use it with the wfc, drop it, it dont work. There is no frequency.
Think to yourself, ask yourself, back then if you was stanley meyers, would you patent the complete truth?? would you not do as he did???
today is a differnt day, there is no patent, now its public and money is not an object, the truth shall come out now!
The construction of my results are ready for you to experience, what ya waiting on? you guys with me or not??
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--- Цитат ---Great work! Yes, that`s water split by voltage potential-
very small, white gasbubbles, highly implosive and energetic Smile
I am not new here, been reading here quite a wile,
but now i would like to share what i think about the VIC.
What hydrocars says is what i also think now, it`s so easy.
I had been "blindet" also for a wile, but while reading the newest results here last week, it really hit me:-)
Maby Stanly Meyer was forced to complicate it,
because it`s so easy and so wouldn`t get his patent granted.
Who knows...
Well for me this works exactly like a ozon generator, only with water.
The high voltage potential creates a corona/ cold plasma field with almost no current and transmutes the oxygen in
the air to ozone.
Remove the insolator between the plates or bring them to close together, the HV arcs over- currentflow.
The corona potetialfield collapses instantly!
Same when using tapwater or water with minerals (conductive) with the VIC, then you get current electrolysis, which
isn`t that efficient and hot chokes...
You only need to hit the selfresonace of the choke (which all coils with airgapped ferrit-/metalcore should have),
that`s why i would and will put all windings on the same core (Step up & Charging choke) Smile
At that selfresonance the choke will generate the strongest corona/cold plasma field/voltage potential in the water
between the tubes and transmutate/split it into it`s elements hydrogen and oxygen.
So i think Stan Meyer ment this coil selfresonance (Which typicaly lays in the audiofreq. range) and the simplest
pulsing circuit should do the job!
Maby there could be a visible blue-purpleish plasma glow between the tubes in a quite dark room.
So because Currentflow will kill this plasmafield emidialy, i only will use noncoductive demineralised water for the VIC.
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I love relating the Tesla coil to the water fuel cell. I think there is no arch in the water between the positive and negative electrodes that would be shorting and would affect the water molecule. But this process applies to the browns gas generator, the one with carbon rods and the under water arch
Rather the high voltage affects the water molecules because of the high voltage field. In a Tesla coil there are arches and sparks but there are very high voltage fields to. If you can get the voltage field under water in the plates, and put the plates as close together without arching, you will get a pretty intense voltage field. No amps would be consumed just like a magnetic field.
The way to generate a high voltage field would be through LC resonance, this means high voltage so be careful. The resonance builds up the voltage field in the water capacitor, and, just before a dielectric failure (arching) occurs the high voltage pulses stop, only to start again and so the process goes, no amp flow no electricity being used. Sure some amperage will be used, nothing is perfect, but if we can get it as low as possible low wattage will be used.
100000v x 0.001 amps = 11 watts, easily doable by the alternator.
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